The Gospel and Same-Sex Attraction

[0:00] So, I know most of us are from our church, but I know there's a handful from other churches, so welcome if that's you. And if you don't know who I am, my name is Brian, I'm the pastor of this church and I'm going to be leading today's seminar.

[0:15] And tonight's seminar is one of two seminars that will be taking place this month. And tonight we're looking at the Gospel and same-sex attractions. So, looking at the topic of homosexuality and what the Bible and especially the Gospel has to say to that topic.

[0:31] So, that's the Gospel and same-sex attraction and then in two weeks' time we'll be considering the topic of transgenderism. So, a related but slightly different topic. So, that's where we're at.

[0:44] Now, let me begin first of all by praying. Before I pray, just to make sure, as you came in, you should have gotten a handout. So, just make sure that you do have that handout because you're going to need it to follow me along.

[0:58] There's no PowerPoint or anything, so the handout is your guide. So, if you haven't got one yet, just put up your hand and someone will get one to you. Okay, then let me pray.

[1:12] Father, thank you again for today. And thank you, Lord, for the opportunity to be able to teach on this topic. And I just pray, Lord, that as I speak, please help me to be sensitive.

[1:25] Please help me, Lord, to be faithful. Please help me to speak with clarity. And I pray that all of us tonight, Lord, will go away feeling more equipped, feeling more ready to deal with the issue of same-sex attraction.

[1:39] And perhaps more importantly, to be able to walk alongside anyone who might be facing or who might be experiencing same-sex attraction. And perhaps there are even people in this room tonight who are experiencing this, Lord.

[1:56] And Lord, I just pray again that you would speak to them as well. So, Lord, I just pray that tonight would be a big help for all of us involved. So, I just commit tonight into your hands.

[2:07] In the name of Jesus, we pray. Amen. Now, let me just begin by asking you, why are you at this seminar?

[2:18] Maybe some of you have nothing better to do on a Friday night. So, you decided just to come. But I imagine that probably most of you, not all of you, probably have a better reason than that.

[2:30] So, let's just hear some reasons why you are here. Why have you decided to give up your Friday night to come and listen to me?

[2:47] To understand more. Okay, simply to understand more. And to understand better to help. Increase understanding. And maybe through understanding, be able to be better in helping.

[2:59] Okay? Alice? To be more equipped. And then if we are unable to happen to come up first, please introduce. And then hopefully it will be a bit of use.

[3:12] Okay. Yep. Okay. We equip and then we come across this issue to be a bit of use. Okay. Anyone else? Yep.

[3:33] Weiling. The reason we are here, I can't hear it because I want to know how our works of church is standing. Okay. How, as Christians, how should we restore and help people to answer that with?

[3:52] Okay. Who Christians want to answer that with? Sure. Okay. So know our church's stance, which, let me rephrase that a bit. Know what's the biblical stance on it, because I hope we follow the Bible.

[4:04] Right? And then how can we respond? Yeah. Okay. I would have expected that some people in this crowd tonight is simply because they are friends who are same-sex attracted, whether they are Christians, non-Christians.

[4:26] Yep. Okay. Let me explain, first of all, the origin of this seminar so that you can get an idea where it's come from and it will kind of also set your expectations for the approach that I'm going to take later on.

[4:41] But some of you will know that I am the chairman of a conference called NextGen, a national conference. And what we do at that conference is we try to equip people to read their Bibles better so that they can go back and be better small group leaders, cell group leaders, youth group leaders, Sunday school teachers, because as they handle the word better, they can teach the word better.

[5:02] And so last year, the team there asked me if I could run a seminar on this topic. And one reason, of course, is because it's a contemporary issue.

[5:14] That's what there was one reason why. But also because by showing how I taught biblically and theologically about this issue, I would be able to model to the people, to the participants at that conference, how do you think biblically and theologically about topics.

[5:31] So it also has that secondary aim as well. So I'm not sure how we're going to proceed later, how much I'll show my workings, but I hope you will be able to pick up some of that as well later on.

[5:44] But that's kind of why the approach I'm going to take later on is the way it is. I haven't really modified it for this audience tonight. So that's just one thing to explain.

[5:56] Right? But also, although the origins of this seminar came about because the NextGen committee asked me to run it, and so I did.

[6:07] And I have given this seminar before, last year, twice. And it seemed to be a big help for many people. And that's one of the reasons why I thought, okay, maybe I'll run it for church as well.

[6:19] But really, it also goes much further back because, like Yi Chie said, she has friends who are same-sex attracted. And actually, I do too. I have had since many, many years ago, I seem to always end up befriending people who experience same-sex attraction.

[6:38] And I have actually a wide range of friends who fall into this category. And so let me just describe some of them to you so that you can see the kind of the spectrum of people. Right?

[6:49] So one of my... Let me start with when I was at university, I was involved in the Christian Union, the Christian Fellowship. And we ran some evangelistic things.

[7:00] And one of the girls, who was actually one of my classmates, she accepted Christ. And that was very exciting. But then, I discovered she was gay.

[7:12] And she was happy to keep living on her gay lifestyle because that's what she's always been. So, oh, this is new to me. What am I going to do?

[7:23] How am I going to tackle this? Another one of my friends is a Christian. I've known him for a long time.

[7:35] And for most of his life, he has found himself to be attracted to people of the same sex. But he has not acted on that attraction.

[7:47] Because he believes that the Bible says that we do not engage in homosexual acts with other people. We should not be in homosexual relationships with others.

[7:58] So I have also a friend like that. And he has been like that. And he has been single to this very day. I have another friend who is non-Christian. I suppose he's got some church-going background.

[8:12] But I guess I wouldn't call him a Christian. And we still keep in touch. We've been friends for 20 plus years now, I think. Around about that, about 20 years. And he is still someone who is looking to get into homosexual relationships.

[8:30] In fact, last year he told me that he was in a relationship with another guy. And that lasted about 12 months. And it didn't work out. But here's someone who is now actively seeking out homosexual relationships.

[8:45] Or one more friend who is actually my classmate at Bible College. My classmate at Bible College.

[8:56] When he's a very bright person. When we were doing our... In our final year at Bible College, there were... A few of us were selected to present our projects.

[9:08] Right? So we do a project in our final year. And he was one of those who were selected alongside me. So both of us, we presented our projects together. Right?

[9:19] So he's a very bright person. And then shortly after we left Bible College, In our first year of ministry, I discovered that he changed his theological position.

[9:31] So he was someone who had previously affirmed... What we call, I suppose, the traditional view of homosexuality. In terms of what the Bible says.

[9:44] So he would not have been... He would have said that it was wrong and so on and so forth. But he changed his mind. And he subsequently got involved in a gay relationship.

[9:59] And not only that, he is now a published author. In which he argues for a reinterpretation of the Bible. So that's another person in another category.

[10:10] So you can see I've got a whole spectrum of them. So that's just to tell you a little bit of my own background. Right? And so that's why I also taken quite a personal interest in this topic as well.

[10:23] Okay. Now I've taken a bit too long on that side. I wasn't planning to talk so much about the personal side. But let me just quickly describe to you... Tell you where we're going tonight.

[10:34] So first of all, what we're going to do is... I'm going to spend maybe 15 minutes or so around that time. Considering the cultural attitudes towards homosexuality.

[10:46] As you can see on your handout, the first number one is... Why is this topic so hung up? Why is it so hard? So what I'm going to do is... I'm going to trace through the history of how people have thought about homosexuality.

[10:59] Right? Very briefly. And then I'll also try to explain why is it that things have changed. Right? Why is it that things 100 years ago and things now... They're not the same, are they?

[11:10] In terms of how we think about homosexuality. Right? And then I'm going to offer a few possible reasons for why that might be the case.

[11:21] And also it will help us to identify what are the actual issues at stake on this topic. Right? And then after I do that, in the middle part of the seminar, I'm actually going to think about what the Bible says about this topic.

[11:39] But I'm actually going to maybe do something that you might not quite expect. Right? So anyway, we'll see when we get to that part. Right? But basically, I want to set things in the big picture first before I look at individual verses.

[11:52] And I'll explain why that is the case later on. And that part you probably have to concentrate quite a bit. Right? So I'll try my best to explain. And then in the final part of the seminar, we'll think about more pastorally.

[12:03] How can we help or how can we think about this issue pastorally, helping people who are experiencing such issues. And how as a church, what are things that we can improve on as well.

[12:17] So that will be kind of the final part. Some deal will tackle some of the common questions as well. And then there will be some time for Q&A at the end as well.

[12:29] So that's where we are going. So let's begin by thinking, why is this topic so hung up? Why is it so hot in our day? Right?

[12:40] Well, one simple reason is because over the last 70 years or so, there has been a major shift in attitudes towards homosexuality. I'm sure we've all felt that, haven't we?

[12:52] Right? This is true primarily in the West, but not just in the West. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell you the story of what happened in the UK as an example.

[13:05] But actually, if you were to look at America or Australia, you will find actually it's a very similar story. The names might change, but the storyline is basically the same.

[13:16] So in the UK, before 1967, male homosexual activities were punishable by law. In fact, before 1861, you could even receive the death penalty for it.

[13:30] So it was simply taken for granted by just about everybody, right? That homosexuality is wrong, it's bad, it's damaging in some way, right?

[13:41] Regardless of your religious background, you might be Christian, you might not be Christian, but that's just what you think about homosexuality. And the law reflected that. Right?

[13:52] So there was a general attitude of revulsion towards homosexuality. Right? You know, some people might even think of homosexual people as predators, threats.

[14:04] Don't let them anywhere near your children. And it was also seen in many circles as a mental illness. Now, of course, that's the law, and the law wasn't always enforced.

[14:16] It's a bit unrealistic to try to police everybody's behaviour. But just by the fact that it's in the law, right, it's clear that this behaviour is considered unacceptable. It's offensive, you shouldn't try to engage in it.

[14:30] But things began to change. By 1957, there was something called the Wolfordon Report, which was published. So this report was commissioned in response to evidence that homosexuality could not legitimately be regarded as a disease.

[14:48] And so they aimed to bring about change in the law at that point by making recommendations to the government. Right? So by 1967, right, the law was changed so that those who are over 21s, right, you are considered an adult, I suppose.

[15:09] Right? So if you've committed homosexual acts which were consensual and private, right, you would not be considered to have committed a crime.

[15:22] So the law is changing. But the key word here is tolerance, not acceptance.

[15:33] Tolerance, not acceptance. In other words, this change in the law was regarded as a concession, not as a celebration. Right?

[15:44] People in general still did not think of homosexuality as a good to be promoted. So, for example, Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988, so 1988, not that long ago, right, which was introduced by the government of Margaret Thatcher, they banned local authorities from promoting homosexuality or pretended family relationships.

[16:09] They prohibited the local councils from funding educational materials and projects that were seen to do as such. But at the same time, in the 1980s, things began to change rapidly.

[16:23] And I know we've got a crowd here of many over 50s, so this might still be in your memory, right? But at this point in history, in the 1980s, AIDS was beginning to break out in a big way, isn't it?

[16:39] The 1980s began to really go big. And this was especially true in the gay community, right? It was spreading in that community.

[16:50] And it was around this time that there began to be stories of ordinary gay men who lovingly looked after their partners who were afflicted with AIDS.

[17:01] So there were many stories about how they, you know, heroically gave of themselves to just help their partners, right? And the late Princess Dinah also began to help remove the stigma and public revulsion, right?

[17:16] In the way that she showed compassion to gay victims of AIDS, right? There's a famous photo of her shaking the hand of one such person. And so these kind of stories and episodes that began to shift the narrative, right?

[17:29] They began to remove the stigma a little bit, right? And it began to be more cast like the story of heroic underdogs fighting the establishment, right? And more and more people were beginning to come up with their various stories.

[17:43] And of course, as we move forward on, by the time we get to the 2000s, things begin to change really quickly, right? We've got the Civil Partnership Act, which allows same-sex couples to legally enter into binding partnerships.

[17:58] And then by the time you get to the last 10 years or so, you have various legislation which allow same-sex couples to actually marry, right?

[18:09] And there's a similar story in other Western countries as well. So what we begin to see here is a period of normalization, right? So on our TV, it became more and more normal, more common to see gay characters.

[18:26] I don't know if any of you know who Ellen DeGeneres is. Okay, there's a few nods there, right? Those 2000 babies don't know that, right? But in 1997, she famously came out as gay on the Oprah Winfrey show, right?

[18:43] And in 1998, that was when I was a teenager, there was a sitcom called Wheel and Race. I don't know if anyone here remembers it. Right? Maybe not.

[18:54] I remember it, right? And it was the first major TV show to feature a gay couple prominently, right? So even here in Malaysia, you know, I have heard of it, I would have read about it.

[19:05] So, you know, it's on our TV. And then, of course, at this point, what we now have is gay pride marches, right?

[19:17] And, of course, it's common now for many companies in the West to signal their support for the LGBT community in this way. You know, they have to, often they have to just say that they come out in support of the gay pride march, they wear those rainbow badges, and so on.

[19:35] I was just talking to my brother last week. My brother works in a London law firm, and he was talking about that kind of stuff going on at his workplace as well, right?

[19:46] Some of you might remember the Swatch incident from last year. I mean, I say more. So, I tried to diagramatize it on your handout, right? So that's that diagram there.

[19:58] So that's what has happened. It's moved from revulsion to concession to normalization to celebration. And celebration also means punishment of those who dissent.

[20:10] So anyone who is not on board with the gay agenda, right? Perhaps they might be hit with a charge of hate speech, right? Or they might be cancelled to use, again, 21st century lingo, right?

[20:26] All these things could happen. So you say, okay, okay, that's the West. Now, what about here in Malaysia? Where are we?

[20:38] Let me summarize. In Malaysia, from a legal point of view, unnatural sex is criminalized under the federal and state sharia laws.

[20:49] And I understand this has been the case since 1985. So state sharia laws criminalize sex between persons of the same sex and gender.

[21:00] And there are also other laws which are not directly to do with LGBT, right? But laws such as, you know, soliciting sex, that kind of, those kind of laws, right? But they're used against LGBT people disproportionately, right?

[21:14] So the full arm of the law is often used to carry out raids, right? Against anyone who is seen as promoting LGBT ideology. And actually, the LGBT community in Malaysia has suffered quite a lot, right?

[21:27] Often they are targeted. They are the victims of violence, torture, degrading treatment. I've been reading a couple of stories on the internet, right?

[21:40] There's forced marriages, there's restricted movements by their families and so on, right? And of course, when you think about the local terminology that's used against the homosexual community, it's still of a rather deregatory nature, isn't it?

[21:58] So we talk about lelaki lembut, akwa, wanita geras, right? That kind of language. So in many ways, maybe we're still kind of where the UK was in the 1960s.

[22:14] But not quite. There have been plenty of efforts in recent years to protect the fundamental rights of LGBTQ people, just to ensure they're not discriminated against.

[22:25] So as recently as October 2019, Fouzia Saleh, who was the then Deputy Minister of Religious Affairs, shared in parliament that the government will take a non-punitive and rehabilitative approach, right?

[22:40] And responding to LGBTQ-related issues, right? And she said something along the lines of, you know, Islam teaches us to hate the act, but not the human.

[22:51] So, again, if you were to look at the diagram, right? Maybe you could say we are at the concession stage, right? Of this diagram.

[23:03] And maybe that might be true from the legal point of view. But, if we go down to the ground, and we take a bottom-up point of view, so not just from the legal standpoint, right?

[23:19] I would actually say we are a bit closer to the normalization stage. Because now I want you to tell me, right? Why don't you tell me, right? If you think about your friends in general, right?

[23:32] And you ask them what's their attitude towards gay people. What would they say? Why don't you tell me? What would they say? What would they say? What would they say? What would they say? What would they say? What would they say?

[23:43] What would they say? Okay, let's be inclusive. Okay. What would they say? Be kind. Be kind. Yeah, absolutely. Anyone else? What do you think your friends would say? Personal choice.

[23:57] Yeah. That would be really common. Right? It's their personal choice. Right? Just let them be. Let them be.

[24:08] Right? Anyone else? Love is love. Ah, yes. Yes. So we'll talk about slogans. Well, maybe not so much in this seminar.

[24:19] More in the transgender one. But yes, it's one of the common slogans, right? Love is love. Right? Which basically means, let's accept everyone where they are at.

[24:33] So yeah, that's right. That's right. So actually, I would say that most people would probably go along a, yeah, it's okay. Right? As long as they're not hurting anybody. That kind of attitude.

[24:46] Right? When I was preparing this seminar for the first time, I did look up an academic study, which was conducted in Malaysia. And so I looked this up about eight months ago. So it's not fresh in my mind anymore.

[24:57] But this study was surveying how people felt about being LGBT in Malaysia. Now, it was a small sample study, so it wasn't big. But what stood out was that people really had a lot of, very diverse experiences.

[25:12] The majority of people felt that there was actually quite a lot of openness to them, from peers, from their peers, their work colleagues, their family members. Right?

[25:23] So they said that, you know, the family members said, okay, you're like that, you're like that. But, you know, we just accept it. Right? And they thought that some famous public figures, for example, some of you might have heard of Mark Sajak, right?

[25:36] Would have helped to soften and alter the public's general view of LGBT. But of course, they also acknowledged that there were also still people who discriminated against them, and, you know, did not treat them well.

[25:49] So there's a whole variety of experiences. It included people who are IBAN and IDAU, actually. So it wasn't just West Malaysians. So that is a snapshot of where we are, right? Those are the changing attitudes, right?

[26:01] I've tried to document that both in the West and also here in Malaysia. But here is the more interesting question, right? Why? What is driving these changes in attitudes?

[26:16] Right? Why is it that 100 years ago, people's attitudes were like that, and it has changed so much in actually less than 100 years, right?

[26:29] 60, 70 years. Right? One reason, of course, could be simply that we have more exposure to actual gay people, right? Some of us who, like, might have encountered friends who are gay, and we discovered they're not monsters.

[26:46] In any ways, they are quite ordinary people, right? So maybe that's part of it. But more fundamentally, there is also something else going on, right?

[26:58] And let me try to explain what that is. So over the last 70 years or so, many people began to view life through the lens of what scholars now call expressive individualism.

[27:14] Right? You can see that on your handout, right? Now, there's a quote on your handout from somebody, from a Jewish thinker called Yuval Levin, and it's quite a mouthful, and I'm not going to go through that definition, right?

[27:26] I'm just going to give you the basic idea of what we mean when we talk about expressive individualism. It's basically a look-in approach to life. Now, what do I mean by that?

[27:39] Here is the idea, right? It starts by saying, your purpose in life is to find out who you truly are, right? So that's what you should do.

[27:50] You should find out who you truly are. But how can you do that? How can you find out who you truly are? The answer? Look inside yourself.

[28:01] To find out who you truly are, you need to find out who you are deep down, and you need to define yourself. Then the next question is, how do you do that?

[28:13] It's not as easy as it sounds. Well, the key idea behind this worldview is that you need to look inward to your private and individual feelings.

[28:25] What are the deepest desires of your heart? So if you find out what those deepest desires are, you can take that and define yourself, right? And because those feelings are internal and private, you know, that inside of you, those feelings are entirely mine.

[28:42] You know, no one else can access them. And that means no one else can therefore contradict them. So you simply have to accept what I have to say about myself, right? Because it's about my feelings.

[28:55] My feelings are inside of me. Only I know my feelings. And I will tell you what I feel, and then you have to accept it, right? Because you have no way of knowing how I feel apart from me telling you. And then after having defined myself by figuring out my desires, the next logical step therefore is to put them on display, right?

[29:16] So you define yourself by figuring out your desires, and then you put them on display. So that is what it means to be authentic, right? You know, I hear people always say, you know, you need to be authentic.

[29:27] And that's what they mean. And some of the slogans that you might have heard today are basically a reflection of this kind of thinking. So follow your heart. Be true to yourself.

[29:39] You do you. No one else can do it for you. Right? I think those of us who are younger are very familiar with these slogans, right? In fact, those of us who are born in the 21st century, you don't even think about it.

[29:53] It's just part of the cultural air you breathe, right? It's on every single TV show that you watch, right? That's the kind of thinking that's behind it, right? And one more thing, if you deny me my right to self-define and to display my true self, you are by definition being oppressive, right?

[30:12] So that is expressive individualism, right? It's quite simply a look-in approach to life, which makes my identity front and center. And so for our purposes tonight, what is important is that people began to apply this approach to sexuality.

[30:29] Right? So they made sexuality a, if not the, key defining trait of their identity. And we can see this change historically. You see, before 1960, homosexuality was more or less used almost exclusively to describe activity.

[30:49] That means something that people engage in, right? So you only talk about homosexual actions, homosexual acts. And only in the 1960s that began to change, right?

[31:03] Many began now to think of heterosexuality and homosexuality in terms of personhood. So what I mean is this. Instead of saying you are someone who has gay sex, you are someone who is gay.

[31:20] Can you see the difference? One is describing the acts, but the other is describing an identity, right? So now people began to think of gay more as an identity.

[31:33] So it becomes your controlling self-understanding. It's how you perceive yourself. It's how you present yourself, right? The LGBT supporting charity Stonewall, they say that the main reason people come out is that they just want to be honest about who they are.

[31:51] Can you hear the language? I need to, you need to be honest about who you are. So for them, it is actually an identity issue. And you can see this, I just gave a little example from a Malaysian context.

[32:06] This was from a random article on Malaysia Guinea, again, maybe about a year ago, right? And this is one of the activists. And if you look at the last paragraph, she says, We stress that sexual orientation, gender, and sex are identities, like race, disabilities, etc.

[32:23] They are not lifestyles, choices, and so on. And what does the misinformed ministers say?

[32:38] So here's the thing. It is psychology, not biology, that determines your identity, right? Your identity now, it becomes about who you desire.

[32:51] Right? Who I desire. If I desire someone of the same sex, that must mean I am, I should identify as gay. Right?

[33:02] So it becomes an identity issue. And then let me just very quickly, briefly mention the influence of the internet. There are enough of us in this room who remember a pre-internet time.

[33:15] Right? Maybe some of us can't, but a majority of us can. Right? And it's actually very important to realize how influential the internet has been in shaping people's self-understanding.

[33:29] This is a very common story. A teenager might feel uncomfortable because he or she realizes that they don't conform to certain gender stereotypes.

[33:41] Right? And they find themselves being attracted to somebody of the same sex. So they are feeling a bit scared, a bit nervous, what am I going to do with this? So where do they turn to?

[33:53] Do they turn to their parents? No, they don't. Do they turn to their pastor? No, they don't. They turn to the internet. And as they type in the searches, what they often discover is they discover stories, languages, internet forums, right?

[34:08] They discover people in similar situations and then they often discover articles that say that, encourage them to say that actually what you're experiencing is you are gay, you need to identify as such.

[34:23] Right? And they realize, oh, for the first time I now know who I am. Right? And so the internet has become very powerful in shaping people's self-understanding because it also feels like that there's the only place in the world.

[34:37] It feels like that there's the only place they can go for real answers. Right? Because they feel like if they go and ask their parents or a teacher or somebody like that, they'll be, you know, told off, scolded, and, you know, people will panic.

[34:52] Right? So they don't want to go there because they'll feel like they won't get the real answers. Right? And because homosexuality is now very much tied to identity, that also helps us understand why people have very strong emotions about the subject.

[35:11] Right? If you are someone who experiences same-sex attraction and you're fine with that, you know, you identify as gay, and then you meet someone else who tells you, no, it's wrong, it's bad.

[35:26] It can be perceived as a fundamental attack on your very identity. It feels as if the other person is saying to you, you cannot be you. Right? So that's why people take it so personally.

[35:39] Right? It's not just that, you know, we call this an issue, but it's not just an issue, you see. Right? And that's why people can go so far as to say that, you know, if you're not pro-gay, you're harming my mental health.

[35:52] Right? Or, you are on the wrong side of history. Again, another fairly common phrase that is used. One more thing I want to point out before we get to the Bible.

[36:06] Right? It's also our changing church interpretations. Now, you can see on the second page of your handout, there's a long list of quotes.

[36:17] I'm not going to read all of them, I don't think. Right? But what I just want you to, what I just want to point out is that in the early church, so that is post the New Testament, after the New Testament, but you know, the first few centuries of the church, the unified witness of the early church is that homosexual acts are wrong.

[36:39] Right? They are against what God wants. Right? There is no exception. Right? So this, so you can just see some of the quotes there. Right?

[36:50] Maybe I'll just randomly read one. Maybe I'll just randomly read one. Bessel's canonical episode from 375 AD. So this is a quote from something he wrote. They who have committed sodomy with men or brutes, murderers, wizards, adulterers, and idolaters, have been taught worthy of the same punishment, etc.

[37:06] Right? So you can see that that has been the unified witness of the early church. They viewed homosexuality as a sin.

[37:17] Right? Because of the nature of the act itself. Right? So they were not against homosexuality because maybe there is one party who is consensual and the other party is not consensual.

[37:35] So that would be basically rape. Right? They were not against it because it involves some sort of violence. Right? They were against it simply because that's not what you should do. Right?

[37:46] So, you know, we want to get that clear. And you can see that this is true all in the Middle Ages. Thomas Aquinas, who is kind of the father of Roman Catholic theology, if you like.

[37:57] Right? He also said very much the same thing. And Martin Luther also very much says the same thing. So you can see that the witness of the early church and the historic church has been pretty much consistent through the centuries.

[38:14] Right? But now, it's starting to change in the last, again, 70 years. Right? Let me read this quote from this person.

[38:30] He says, We are witnessing a profound transformation in attitudes towards people who are LGBT throughout many American denominations. In the 1950s, very few people knew any out, that means people who openly are LGBT people.

[38:46] Today, most Americans do. They are friends and co-workers, parents, children, and siblings, neighbours, elected officials, and fellow church members. For many people, as ignorance has been replaced with real-world knowledge of people who are LGBT, myths and preconceptions have vanished.

[39:03] This remarkable transformation has given us the opportunity to read the biblical texts anew through the lens of Jesus' redemptive life and ministry, free from some of the mistaken assumptions that have previously obscured our understanding of God's revelation for our lives.

[39:17] Like growing numbers of Christians across the United States and around the world, I believe that support for LGBT equality is in consistent with and indeed mandated by my faith. So basically, the person is saying, right, that, well, now that we are pretty much enlightened, right, so actually we need to rethink our understanding of the Bible.

[39:37] Yes, in the past people thought like this, but now we need to read them afresh. And maybe we realise that we've been mistaken all this while. And actually, the Bible does affirm homosexual relationships.

[39:48] It doesn't say anything is wrong with that, right? We need to get on with the times, right, update our understanding and, you know, move on into the 21st century.

[39:59] So that's what the guy is saying that he just was written in the 20th century, actually. So it's a few decades ago. So, by just kind of tracing this history, I hope that I've laid out some of the issues at stake.

[40:15] But also, I hope this also helps us understand why some of us, right, might respond the way that we do, right? Now, I'm going to overgeneralise a bit, but I found that this is true generally, right?

[40:32] So there are always exceptions in my experience. But basically, those who are from an older generation, and here I will define older generation as more or less 40 years and above, around there.

[40:47] I'm on the threshold, right? So I don't quite swore there yet. But their reaction to homosexuality is, by default, is to say, yuck, you know?

[41:03] How can anyone do this? It's terrible. It's repulsive. It's, yeah, you know, it just boggles my mind why anyone would want to get involved in this and why anyone would want to even support such things, right?

[41:16] Right? And in a way, you can understand that, right? Because you are, this is before the, you guys are born before the 1980s, right? And, you know, you remember I described 1960s, 1970s, the attitude is still kind of like that.

[41:29] So we are all creatures of our culture, you know? We can't run away from how we have been affected by culture. So that has shaped our, the way we respond instinctively to things.

[41:41] Now you might try to temper it down, right? But in general, that's how, again, overgeneralization, but that's what people of that generation often react to, right?

[41:53] And so if you're like, okay, if you're homosexual, well, just step out of it, right? That might be one way that people might respond, right? Or you might say, oh, if you are homosexual, for sure it must be because your family background got something wrong, right?

[42:06] Your parents were abusive, right? That must be hard, right? So that's how often how they think. Now, on the other hand, those from the younger generation, below 90, right? You are much more likely to have personal relationships and encounters with people who are gay.

[42:22] They are your friends, right? And of course, the cultural air that you breathe is a little bit different, right? So you're probably more likely to believe, as we just said earlier, that sexual orientation is just like race.

[42:37] It's biologically determined, right? That's just who you are, right? And if you try to change someone like that, just like you try to change someone's race, right?

[42:48] That's harmful. That's stupid, right? So you also think something is stupid, but you're thinking something different is stupid, right? So, and well, if a guy and a girl can get married, why can't a guy and a guy get married?

[43:01] If they love one another, right? What's wrong with that, right? So you are more likely to be accepting and to take in those kind of attitudes, right?

[43:12] So that's why I call, yay! So one is yuck, one is yay, right? And I hope also as we've gone through this, right, just looking at the history, right?

[43:26] We should say this, that LGBT people have been very badly treated and discriminated against at times, right?

[43:37] I think there's no denying that, right? And so we should actually acknowledge that fact as well. Okay, so that's all the kind of the cultural history, where we are at, how we got here, kind of thing.

[43:52] Now before I proceed any further, let me ask you a question again, right? Just before we look at the Bible. So, tell me, what do you think is the Bible's take on homosexuality?

[44:03] Before I just ask you something, give me a summarizing that sentence. Right? What do you think the Bible says about homosexuality? Abomination. Oh, that's very interesting, okay?

[44:16] So, yes, the word abomination does come up in Leviticus, right? And it's actually a very strong word, right? Think about that, I mean, and think about how you'll feel if you are someone who's attracted, same-sex attraction, and you read the Bible and it says abomination.

[44:32] Right? Okay. Yep. Others? Is that a trick question? Why would they have people that would punish the Bible? Okay, so maybe you're thinking of 1 Corinthians, where it does say that, you know, those...

[44:52] Romans 1. Romans 1. Yeah, we'll look at Romans 1 later. Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6. Right? They are not part of the kingdom of God. Okay. Anyone else? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you might associate it with Sodom and Gomorrah.

[45:03] Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, you might associate it with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum Okay, basically, right, we will come up with basically negative statements, isn't it?

[45:43] And that's exactly right, because the Bible does have negative statements about homosexuality, right? And often, right, in seminars like this, right, it's very tempting just to go straight to the individual texts, the individual verses where homosexuality is discussed.

[45:58] There's actually not that many of them. There's a few of them. And we just say, okay, let's look up all the verses where homosexuality is explicitly mentioned. Okay, let's show what they say. And then we say, see, it says no, cannot.

[46:13] Okay, we cannot affirm homosexuality, end of story. Right? Now, we will do a bit of that in a moment. But that's not necessarily the most helpful thing to do.

[46:24] Right? It's actually not the best starting point. Why is that? Number one, because as I've just tried to show by doing the...

[46:36] what we just covered over the last half an hour or so, right? The issues here are not just about behavior, isn't it? It's actually about identity. Right? So if we just look at the individual verses in isolation, it doesn't really tackle that dimension.

[46:51] Right? So that's one thing. Secondly, it doesn't really show the big picture of where these prohibitions against homosexuality fit into the Bible's overall sexual ethic.

[47:07] Right? It's just, okay, this is just what the verse says. That's it. But it doesn't actually show you, alright, what is the Bible's view of sexuality in general as a whole.

[47:19] Right? And what does the Bible say about that sexuality? What positive things does the Bible say about sexuality in general? And then how does homosexuality fit within that positive vision?

[47:29] When you do that, you can also unintentionally single out homosexuality as the sin. That's another thing. Right? And finally, I think it's also not helpful because it doesn't necessarily show where Jesus fits in.

[47:45] Right? You know, does the gospel actually make a difference to how you should think about these issues? And so, I need you to chat with me here a bit. Right?

[47:55] But, so, concentrate and follow along. But this is where we need to start. Right? You can see the quote below from Tozer. The question before us, and the question that really matters is simply, what do you think about Christ?

[48:12] And what are you going to do with Christ? Every question we might ever have can be boiled down to the subject of Jesus Christ. Right? So actually, where we're going to begin with, is we're going to begin with Jesus, and we're going to start with the question, right?

[48:31] Who is Jesus? And that's actually the question facing every single human being on this planet, right? Whether you are, you know, whatever sexual orientation you consider yourself to be, whether you're heterosexual, homosexual, right? We all need to have an answer to this question.

[48:46] Who is Jesus? And so we start not by looking in, but by looking up to who Jesus is. And, what we as Christians know, is that the answer to that, is that we are all sinners in need of grace, isn't it?

[49:09] Right? That's where we start. Right? If we're Christian, we know that we have not acknowledged Jesus as Lord, and actually that's what we need to do. Right?

[49:19] So when Jesus began his public ministry, what were the first words he said? Mark chapter 1, the time has come, the kingdom of God has come near, repent, and we leave the good news.

[49:34] So notice the very first response that Jesus calls for, and this is for everyone. Right? He says, repent. Now what does repent mean? It means we change direction.

[49:45] Right? So Jesus thinks that we are all heading in the wrong direction. Right? Well, like those people who are driving on the wrong way, on the highway. Right? And if we're driving the wrong way on the highway, that means we're at big risk of crashing, isn't it?

[49:59] Sooner or later. Right? And so, we need to turn around, and we need to follow Jesus. Right? So that we are not going against God's purposes, or God's plans, but we're going with God's purposes and plans.

[50:20] And that is Jesus' invitation to everyone, isn't it? Right? That's the first thing everyone, whether you are gay or straight, you must decide for yourself who is Jesus. So, if we repent, that means we have become a Christian, isn't it?

[50:36] Right? Because that's the definition of a Christian, someone who has repented, and put their faith in Jesus. Right? And, also, when we say that we repent, and put our faith in Jesus, we are also saying that Jesus is our Lord.

[50:50] And when we say Jesus is our Lord, that means we are saying that Jesus is in charge of every part of our lives, isn't it? Not just one area. Every single area of our lives. Right? He has bought us at a price.

[51:02] We are his possession. And actually, that has now become our identity. Our identity is we belong to Jesus. We are bought at a price. We follow him. And so, if that is true, if you have made the decision to follow Jesus, and repent, and say that he is my Lord, then of course, the next natural question you then ask is, am I willing to let my sexuality belong to him as well?

[51:30] And that is exactly what this person called Rachel Gilson realized. So, Rachel, she wrote a book called Born Again This Way, and she talks about the moment when she became a Christian.

[51:42] So, she's been exploring Christianity for a while, right? And then, one moment, one day, she just realized that she couldn't resist Jesus any longer. She had to trust in him. And yet, in her early days as a Christian, she says this, it's a quote on the handout.

[51:56] To my mind, God's prohibition of same-sex relationships made no sense. I should say that she is someone who is gay, right? She has been living a gay lifestyle, right? And she says, God's prohibition of same-sex relationships made no sense.

[52:08] My heart fully embraced the love is love narrative. The logical move from God is love to people fall in love seem to validate all consensual romantic adult relationships. Weren't they all potential expressions of this higher reality?

[52:21] This seemed elegant and obvious. I wasn't craving murder or theft, but love, intimacy, and companionship. I didn't understand.

[52:32] But would I trust him? Would I take as truth my word or God? Oh, here's another person, Sam Aubrey, who says, being a Christian means I believe what I believe about sexuality because I believe what I believe about Jesus.

[52:50] I follow him, which means I follow what he teaches about this part of life. So both of them recognized that as soon as they decided to become a Christian, that had implications for their sexuality because they said they followed Jesus, and so therefore they had to take seriously what Jesus said about sexuality.

[53:13] So then the big question is, what did Jesus say about sexuality, right? So that's where we go to next, right? We want to consider what Jesus says about sexuality as a whole.

[53:28] And there are four things, four things that I want to point out that Jesus says. First of all, Jesus exposes the brokenness of our human condition, including sexual immorality.

[53:46] So in Mark 7, verse 20 to 23, he famously says this, Jesus went on, what comes out of a man, out of a person, is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come.

[54:00] Sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, guilt, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.

[54:11] So Jesus makes clear in these verses that, although we are all created good, we have all been broken by the fall, isn't it?

[54:22] We've all been broken by sin. We are all unclean before God. We are guilty of greed, guilty of envying others, guilty of speaking badly of others, right?

[54:34] And notice that our brokenness encompasses all of us, right? So this is the first thing we must say first. It's not just our sexuality that is broken, right? It's actually our entire being, right? And you notice that most of the items on this list is non-sexual, right?

[54:48] So that's the first thing I want you to observe, right? A lot of the lists of bad things, he says, are non-sexual in nature. But having said that, Jesus makes clear that our sexuality is amongst the things that are broken, right?

[55:03] So Jesus makes clear that it's true of all of us. We have all sinned sexually, regardless of whether we call ourselves heterosexual or homosexual, or perhaps engaged in lustful thinking that we shouldn't have.

[55:17] Maybe we have not lived up to God's design for our sexuality, even if it's not in a homosexual way, right? So God, Jesus makes that clear. But, at this point, it is also important to recognize that Jesus also does include homosexual acts as part of our sinful, broken condition.

[55:38] Notice that phrase that is translated sexual immorality in that list, right? That is the Greek word, porneia, which is where we get the word pornography from, right?

[55:49] So the word there is porneia. And what does porneia mean? It simply means unlawful sexual intercourse. And that would have covered a wide range of sexual activity outside marriage, right?

[56:03] And this is what's important for our seminar tonight, right? In case we have any doubt what unlawful sexual intercourse covers, all we have to do is just turn back to Leviticus chapter 18 to 20, which we will do later, right?

[56:19] And if you just go through the list, it will say, okay, what does unlawful sexual intercourse include? It includes sex with your neighbor's wife, sex with your sibling, sex with your pet, and yes, sex with people of the same sex.

[56:37] So no one in Jesus' day, when they heard Jesus say this, would have doubted that Jesus was prohibiting same-sex sexual activity of any kind.

[56:48] So sexual immorality here is not restricted to homosexuality, but it includes it, right? So sometimes people say, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, right?

[57:02] It is untrue, right? He does. Point it out. But he says it here not to single it out. Did you notice? He just says it as part of a larger point that we are all broken and sinful in many different ways, including in this way, right?

[57:19] And of course, that's not all he has to say, but that's one of the things he says. Right? Then the next question arises. Okay. Why is homosexual relationships of any sort considered sexual immorality?

[57:35] Why is there a restriction? Right? Well, because according to Jesus, they deviate from God's original blueprint for sexuality, right?

[57:47] And that's the next point, right? Jesus affirms God's blueprint for sexuality. Now, if we are falling asleep a bit, this is the part where you need to wake up, right? Because this is the really important point, right?

[57:59] And I want us to take a closer look at Matthew chapter 19. Matthew chapter 19. To give me a break from my voice, let's get someone to read it.

[58:09] Ben, you don't mind reading Matthew 19, 3 to 6 for us. Verse 3. Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?

[58:23] Haven't you read? He replied, that at the beginning, the Creator made them male and female, and said, For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.

[58:34] So they are no longer Jew, but one flesh. Therefore, one God has joined together, let no one separate. Okay, now this might not be an obvious passage to look at, right? But you need to just follow along with me, and you'll become clear.

[58:47] So, what is happening in these verses, right? The Pharisees are trying to test Jesus, and they bring up a known issue of the day, which is divorce, right? So, at that time, there was a debate among all the different Jewish groups, right?

[58:59] Concerning the interpretation of Deuteronomy 24, which is about divorce, right? And how to apply it, so some of the Jews were saying, you have to apply it in a very strict way, and then others were saying, oh, no, no, no, no need to be so strict, right?

[59:12] So, they come to Jesus, and actually, it's kind of a no-win situation for Jesus, because whoever, whatever he says, right, somebody is going to be unhappy, right? But, very interestingly, look at what Jesus does, right?

[59:23] Instead of debating the point of law with the Pharisees, what he does is, he lays out God's original blueprint for sexuality in summary form. So, he goes back to creation.

[59:36] In verse 5, he quotes Genesis 2, verse 24. We're all familiar with this one. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.

[59:47] So, he says, look, okay, guys, before we talk about all these things that you're debating, let's get clear. What is marriage? And he says to them, it is a one flesh union.

[60:00] Okay, he said, what does one flesh mean? Well, it's about the unique, emotional, physical, and spiritual bond between two parties in a marriage, right?

[60:12] And it's a lifelong bond, right? So, basically, this is Jesus' point. He's saying that, if this is what marriage is, right, it's a lifelong bond between two people, right, then, of course, divorce in general is a bad idea, right?

[60:26] You shouldn't even be thinking about it, right? Okay, you say, but I still don't get it. I mean, that's divorce, but we're talking about homosexuality here, right?

[60:37] So, okay, keep following me, right? So, Jesus, right, when he talks about one fleshness, he's also talking partly about the sexual union, isn't it, between two people, right?

[60:48] That's part of the covenant of marriage. So, one fleshness isn't just about the sexual union, but it includes it, right? That sexual union is included in the idea. Now, the question that we're asking tonight is, can this sexual union be between two human beings of the same size?

[61:05] Isn't it? Right? I mean, in Genesis 2, it says, there's Adam, there's Eve, but maybe you could argue, oh, it doesn't have to be like that, right? I mean, it's like that in Genesis 2, but maybe today it can be different.

[61:18] As long as you guys are in a committed relationship, and you don't divorce, right? We don't divorce. Okay, right? And, you could possibly argue that if Jesus had just quoted Genesis 2, verse 24, right?

[61:36] You could say, okay, Jesus talked about one flesh, right? Don't, don't, don't break it, right? Okay, and maybe a guy and a guy, they can do that. But did you notice that Jesus doesn't just quote Genesis 2, verse 24, but right before that, what does he quote?

[61:51] He quotes Genesis 1, verse 27, that's in verse 4. He says that, at the beginning, the Creator made them male and female.

[62:03] Now, strictly speaking, Jesus did not need to quote Genesis 1, verse 27, right? To make his point. If he had just quoted Genesis 2, verse 24, right, which talks about the high place of marriage, that would have been sufficient to answer the Pharisees, right?

[62:20] So, why is it in there? Because Jesus wants to unpack what this one fleshness is all about. And Jesus' big point here is that, this one fleshness is not just between two generic people, it is between a male and a female.

[62:36] In other words, by definition, sexual difference is essential to marriage, right? It has to be a guy and a girl for you to call it marriage.

[62:49] And God says our differentiation as male and female is actually foundational to who we are as image bearers, right? Now, there are other significant differences between human beings, right?

[63:03] Some of us are extroverts, some of us are introverts, some of us are Chinese, some of us are not Chinese, right? But, God doesn't define human beings in that way, right?

[63:14] In Genesis 1. But he does say, they are male and female. He differentiates them that way, right? Interesting, isn't it?

[63:25] And then, it's also why in Genesis 2, again, most of us know this, that Eve is described as a suitable helper, or a fit helper. Now, the Hebrew word for suitable, or fit, is quite hard to translate, but it means something like this.

[63:43] It means like against him, or according to opposite of him, right? It doesn't make sense, right? But what it's trying to capture is that, Eve is, in one sense, like Adam, because they're both human beings, like, and yet against, in the sense that they are, differentiated, it's a different sort of human, she is female, not male.

[64:10] And so, Jesus is saying, look, this is God's original blueprint, his creation blueprint, from the very beginning, and it's beautiful, it's diverse, because it's not all the same, it's not monochrome, right?

[64:21] It's about two different human beings, interacting with one another, and coming together. And of course, in Ephesians chapter 5, right? Paul would then, say that, marriage is not just, Adam and Eve getting together, it is also about, Christ, and the church, coming together.

[64:41] That's what marriage is meant, to picture. And so, if marriage is a picture of Christ, and the church, right? The one flesh union, in some way, shows the, relationship that Christ has, for his bride, the Christ love of the bride, right?

[64:54] Again, notice, for the analogy to work, they cannot be the same, because Christ and the church, are not the same, right? We don't say that we are, Christ, right?

[65:08] And yet, Christ is able to draw his people, to himself, to unite people, to him, right? So, why did God create our sexuality, in this way, right? In the way that he has, male and female?

[65:19] And at least, part of the answer, is because, he wants to tell the story, of the gospel, through it, which means that, the fact that we are, male and female, is actually very, very important, right? It pictures, the gospel.

[65:31] And, a same-sex relationship, cannot picture this, in the same way. Do you see that? A same-sex relationship, it cannot do that, in the same way.

[65:43] And, so, that is why, Jesus, and the Bible, does not affirm, homosexuality, because it is actually, going against, that particular picture.

[66:04] When we, say yes, to same-sex relationships, we are actually saying, no to God's blueprint, for sexuality. But, that is not where, we should stop, because there are two more things, I want to say, right?

[66:20] Because, Jesus says, we are broken, isn't it? Our sexuality is broken, and he has, affirmed God's blueprint, for sexuality, and what he wants to do now, is he wants us, to go back, to how it was, right?

[66:32] And he does, and he does this in two, there's two things, that he does. Number one, he protects, our sexuality. You see, if you are non-Christian, right? This is the story, you often heard, or if I become a Christian, that's really bad, because, those Christians, the Bible, right?

[66:50] They are very, anti-sex, right? They are very anti-gay, they are all out, to destroy my sexuality, right? They say no, to same-sex relationships, ahiyah, Jesus is so, oppressive, so repressive, right?

[67:02] Why does he give me, these feelings, but he doesn't permit me, to act on them? Right? So that's what, people often think, but actually, nothing is further, from the truth. Because Jesus is not out, to destroy our sexuality, he's out to protect, our sexuality.

[67:15] Because we are special, to him, and because he cares, so much about us, he wants to make sure, that the way, we are broken already, does not get further, broken, if I can say it that way.

[67:27] And we can see this, when we look at, another one of Jesus' teachings. So again, look at Matthew 5, verse 27, to 28, right? That's I think on the, on the sheet, yes it is.

[67:39] Nicholas, you don't mind reading for us? It's on the, it's actually on the handout, do you have to hand out? Oh, okay. So you just read Matthew, so that you don't have to, so you can't read into it.

[67:52] Matthew 5. Okay, I think many of us, are familiar with this, saying, and what is Jesus doing here, now, of his value, he's just quoting, one of the ten commandments, isn't it?

[68:11] Right? He's saying something, that probably all his hearers, would have agreed with, already. Right? Everyone would have, yeah, been nodding their heads, when they heard him say, oh, you shall not commit adultery, and everyone was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, correct, correct, that's one of the ten commandments, right?

[68:25] But what about verse 28? Jesus now expands, the application, isn't it, of that command? He's not just concerned, with the action, but with the intent. Now, often, right, whenever you hear this verse preached, right, we are usually focusing, on the person, who is doing the looking, right?

[68:43] We're saying, look, look, Jesus has such high standards, right? Don't, don't look at a woman, lustfully, right? Right? But I want you to think, about this verse, from another perspective. Think about it from the perspective, of the person, being looked at, right?

[68:58] The person being looked at. So what is Jesus actually doing, when he gives this command? He's actually saying, you know what? That woman, that you're looking at, she's no object.

[69:12] That's not how I designed her to be. She is not a commodity, for your gratification. She's not to be used, however you like. In other words, Jesus is protecting, her sexuality.

[69:26] He's saying, look, her sexuality is so precious, it's so valuable, you should not violate it. Right? It's only to be expressed, in the right context, right?

[69:38] You should follow God's blueprint, for sexuality. So you see, Jesus has a very high concern, to protect, people's sexuality. And when it comes to homosexuality, that is Jesus' intention, as well.

[69:49] So why does Jesus, want us to say no, to same sex relationships? Because he actually, wants to protect us. He wants us to function, according to how God, designed us to be. Right?

[70:00] You know when you use a gadget, that is contrary, to its design, you'll probably break, damage it. So if I decided that, uh, Alexis' handphone now, is a hammer, I'm using it, in a way that is contrary, to its design.

[70:15] Isn't it? Right? And that will break it. And Jesus wants us, not to experience, that kind of brokenness. But more than that, Jesus wants to redeem, our, sexuality.

[70:27] Right? Remember, who is Jesus? Right? He's not just our Lord, he's our saviour. And he wants, what is best, for us. Jesus already knows, that we are sexually broken, in all sorts of ways.

[70:40] Right? Whether it's, lust, looking at porn, entering into the same sex relationship. And Jesus knows, we are broken, not just because, we have sinned, but also, we have, we have been sinned against.

[70:55] Right? There are people out there, who have also experienced, sexual abuse. Right? There are people who, because they look at porn, they realize that, how they view sex, is not how it should be.

[71:11] But the gospel says, Jesus wants to, redeem us. And that includes, our, sexuality. And so, 1 Corinthians 6, verse 9 to 11, is one of the most encouraging verses, in the Bible really.

[71:24] Let me read it. Or do you not know, that wrongdoers, will not inherit, the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men, who have sex with men, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slenderers, nor swindlers, will inherit, the kingdom of God.

[71:41] Right? So that's the warning part. Right? But, here is verse 11. And that is what, some of you, were. Past tense. But now, what has happened?

[71:53] You were, washed. You were sanctified. You were justified. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. And by the spirit of God. Right? So yes, in verse 9 and 10, we've got this catalogue of sins.

[72:07] And remember, they're not all sexual. Remember that? So it's not like homosexuality is being singled out. And if we are, in that condition, we'll be outside the kingdom of God.

[72:17] But here's the encouraging part. Jesus says, it doesn't have to be that way. Right? Right? If you come to Jesus, you're washed clean, your sinful past doesn't have to define you.

[72:30] Right? And if you've been in a same-sex relationship, or committed same-sex sin, it doesn't have to define you. And that's what Rachel Wilson goes on to say.

[72:41] Is that in your hand up? Yeah. In Jesus Christ, I found my answer. Yes, I could trust God because in Christ, he has proven himself trustworthy.

[72:52] This was my anchor when sees God stormy. I was free to obey before I understood because of who Jesus is and who he has shown himself to be for me. Anything he said to me was for my good, even if I couldn't make up how.

[73:05] I could build my life on his goodness and love. So she said, she hasn't figured everything out. There's still a lot of stuff that she doesn't know and she's struggling on in this journey. But because she's convinced that Jesus has saved her, Jesus is good, then she can keep on keeping on.

[73:21] So that's Rachel Gilson. So I hope you've seen why I've done what I've done. Right? Which is that I've tried to, first of all, set everything in the context of God's original design for our sexuality and God's desire in Christ to redeem our sexuality, to protect it, to sanctify it.

[73:44] And that's when we begin to see why the gospel is so integral to our conversations about homosexuality. Yeah, without that, why the Bible says no to homosexuality.

[74:02] So we've got the reason for that. And it's only, I think, after we do all that, then we come to the individual passages on homosexuality, right?

[74:13] And now we begin to understand that. Why is it that when we read the Old Testament and the New Testament, it consistently says no to homosexuality. And the reason is this. And actually, the Bible doesn't make that big a deal of it because there are actually only six passages in total that explicitly reference this.

[74:30] And I've listed them down for you, right? Genesis 19, Leviticus, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and 1 Timothy 1. But now what I'm going to do is this, right?

[74:40] We're not going to look at every single one of those passages. But we're going to look at one or maybe two. We'll see how time goes, right? Because now, I want you to also equip you with this, right?

[74:54] Remember, earlier on, I told you about my friend who has now changed his position on homosexuality and argues that the Bible says that homosexuality is fine.

[75:07] It promotes it, right? And remember, there was a quote from somebody, right? And I said earlier who was also saying that. So I think it's helpful for us to kind of get a bit of an understanding of how these people argue, right?

[75:26] Because some of you might encounter this. You might have people who say, hey, hey, hey, yeah, I know that you go to a traditional church and believe in this, but actually, you guys are a bit outdated.

[75:37] You didn't realize that there's new scholarship on all these things, right? So let me just give you a favor of how these people are guild.

[75:47] So let's just take an example from Leviticus, right? So maybe let's just read those two verses first. Leviticus 18, 22, and 20, verse 13.

[75:57] Okay? Let's get someone to read it. the people once take me. Sorry, Raymond, you're right in front of me, so I'll get you to read it. Leviticus 18, 22.

[76:16] You don't have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman. That is detestable. Okay, and 20, verse 13. If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable, they are to be put to death.

[76:42] Their blood will be on their own heads. Okay, thank you very much. Okay, so at first glance you say, oh, isn't that very straightforward? We just read the verse, it's obviously wrong, so how do these people argue?

[76:53] Here are two common kind of arguments, right? The first argument is people might argue, hey, yes, it says that, but Christ has come, and if Christ has come, that means the Old Testament law is obsolete, right?

[77:08] Leviticus is obsolete, it doesn't apply to us. And hey, don't you guys eat prawns? How many of you had prawns tonight before you came? Right? So, hey, if you eat prawns, but you say that this is wrong, you're double standard.

[77:22] Isn't it? You're violating Leviticus as well. If you're consistent, then you also shouldn't eat prawn. Okay, Nicholas, tomorrow, no more, no more laksa, that's right. Yeah, laksa, laksa.

[77:36] So don't post that picture on Facebook. So that's one way to argue. Here's another way that it's argued. Okay, yes, it says no, but actually it has something very, very specific in view.

[77:48] So the verses are about, and they have, there's a variation, so some might say it's about cult prostitution, that is prostitutes at the temple, as in the pagan temple, not the Jewish temple. It's talking about rape, or maybe it's talking about abusive paternity.

[78:04] Now, how is paternity? Paternity is man and boy relationship. Right? So a man, an adult man and a minor. Right? Right?

[78:15] So yes, yes, obviously the Bible says that's wrong, it goes against that, but he's not really talking about faithful, loving, homosexual relationships. Right? So it's only narrowly banning those kind of relationships, but if you're a faithful, committed, monogamous, same-sex relationship, that's actually okay.

[78:30] Right? So that's one common argument. So, how do we respond to this? Right? I mean, the people writing this book, they have PhDs behind their names.

[78:42] Right? It might seem very intimidating at first. But, I want to say that if you just apply the normal way that you read your Bibles, which is, you should read carefully in context, considering the literary and historical context, right?

[79:00] Then we might begin to get a slightly different picture. So let's look at Leviticus first. Let us consider the second argument first, the one that says that, you know, it's actually about, just about rate or that kind of stuff.

[79:13] Right? So let's consider the context, first of all, of Leviticus 18 and 20. Right? So in Leviticus 18 and 20, this section is focused on the holiness required by God's people.

[79:25] Right? Sometimes it's called the holiness code. Right? So from about chapter 17, 18 onwards, it's talking about the holiness that is required by God's people. And if you look at 18 verse 2, right, it says, speak to the Israelites and say to them, right, and then you go to 20 verse 2, uh, 20, yeah, 20 verse 1 and 2, the Lord said to Moses, say to the Israelites, and he goes on to say stuff.

[79:52] So we notice that this is a word for all Israel. Right? First of all, notice that, God is addressing everybody. Right? So not just a subsection.

[80:03] And there is a ABA pattern to chapter 18 to 20. So that means chapter 18 and 20, if you look at them, they're about the same topics. They're about sex and idolatry. So if you read through chapter 18 and you read through chapter 20, you know, this sex and idolatry are the two big subjects.

[80:18] Right? And then when you look at chapter 19, it seems to be a bit more random. Right? It seems to be talking about all various parts of life. Right? But the big point of holiness is still there. If you look at 19 verse 2, it says there, speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them, be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy.

[80:38] And actually, chapter 19 is so wide-ranging because the point is, there's no area of life where that does not apply. Isn't it? Right? We need to be holy in every aspect of our lives.

[80:51] Right? Okay? So it seems very comprehensive when you look at the context, right? Chapter 18 to 20. And then there are more contextual clues, right? If you read through chapter 18 on your own, right?

[81:04] Remember, some people argue that, oh, this is about cult prostitution. So, you know, you shouldn't go to have homosexual relationships with temple prostitutes, right? But if you read chapter 18, is there anything about temple, people, about cult prostitution, about that kind of thing going on?

[81:29] No, not really. There's nothing in there to suggest that. And in fact, if you know the historical context, right, temple prostitution wasn't even something that really existed back in Moses' day, right?

[81:41] Something that came about later. Right? So when you look at the details around, it doesn't seem to be on the mind, of the writer. You know, you read about the other laws as well, you know, about incest and all that.

[81:54] That's not there. And then look at 20 verse 13 again, eh? Look at the way it's worded. If a man has sexual relations with a man, as one does with a woman, and then both of them are testable.

[82:10] So notice how general it is if you have sex with a man, as with a woman. And that's all it says. Right? So, again, there are no qualifications, no mention of rape, no mention of age difference, no mention of coercion.

[82:27] Right? So to argue in that way, you're really just scratching the evidence. Right? They might argue in a very clever way, but if you look at the text itself, nothing in the text would suggest anything like that.

[82:39] Again, how about rape? But if you look at Leviticus 20 verse 13 again, notice it says both of them have done what is detestable, they are to be put to death. In other words, it's obviously a consensual relationship.

[82:51] Right? There's no suggestion of abuser and victim at this point. Right? Because both of them suffer the punishment. So again, if you just read carefully, right, the arguments don't quite stand up in scrutiny.

[83:09] So, again, just simply look at the context and that's to encourage you. You don't have to have PhDs in biblical studies to be able to kind of see where there are weaknesses in this argument.

[83:25] Now, what about the other objection? The other objection? The one that says, well, Christ has come, all of this is obsolete, right? Now, obviously, it is true that the law is fulfilled in Christ.

[83:36] Right? The New Testament makes that clear. The question is, how is it fulfilled? How is it fulfilled? Because there are a variety of ways it can be fulfilled.

[83:51] Yes, it is true that in some ways, the way it's fulfilled means that certain things become obsolete. So we all know that we don't sacrifice animals anymore. But remember when Jesus said, don't commit adultery?

[84:05] That's also in the Old Testament. Right? How does Jesus apply it? How does it fulfill in him? Well, he says, now that command means, don't look at a woman who lasts.

[84:16] Right? Don't look at another person who lasts. Right? He's not making it obsolete. He just says that this is the way that you're applying it. And indeed, in Leviticus 19,!

[84:26] 19 verse 18, we have one of the most quoted passages in the New Testament. Right? When you look at 19 verse, is it 18? Let me just see. Yes, 19 verse 18, yeah.

[84:38] Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbour as yourself. Is that not something you see all over the New Testament?

[84:52] Right? So, we don't say that that has become obsolete just because Christ has come. Or think about incest. Right? In 1 Corinthians 5, there's somebody sleeping with the mother.

[85:05] Well, not the mother. It's actually the stepmother. Right? And clearly, that's our balance. Right? Do we say that that's obsolete because Christ has come? Right? So, just because Christ has come doesn't mean everything has become obsolete.

[85:20] And we know that the Old Testament sexual ethic with regards to homosexuality is not obsolete because the New Testament affirms it. Because Jesus said, so we just look at those prior verses while Jesus said, right?

[85:33] Mark 7 and so on. So, again, it is not the case, right? It's easy to throw up somebody who says, oh, Christ has come and they're eating prawns.

[85:46] Right? So, Hong Pa can go back to eating prawns. He must be really. So, that's one of the arguments.

[85:58] Okay? So, that's Leviticus chapter 18. And I think maybe I'll stick to just one example. There's also a Romans 1 example, but I think I'll just stick to one so that I won't overly tire you out.

[86:09] Right? But just to give, I should say that most of the people, the way they argue is similar to this. So, with Romans 1, for example, the way that people argue, again, it's the same. They say, oh, yes, there are all these things but it actually applies only to men having sex with boys or rape or whatever.

[86:26] So, often the arguments often take that kind of shape. There is another slightly more interesting argument that is used in Romans 1. But, you can ask me more about it later.

[86:37] I think I'll skip it so that we can get to the pastoral section. So, as we end, this is the third section, and we don't want to finish this.

[86:48] We want to finish this not just by looking at the Bible but thinking about how all these things can inform the way that we respond to people.

[86:59] And so, I've tried to do this in the sense of some common questions, particularly in two categories. I want to respond, first of all, to people who might themselves be struggling with same-sex attraction and also, if you are friends or you're walking alongside someone who is same-sex attracted or some of the things that we can do or help.

[87:24] So, first of all, what if you yourself are experiencing same-sex attraction? Right? If you are here tonight and that is something that you know that has been there.

[87:40] So, here are a few things I want to say to you and to remember. First of all, don't feel surprised or confused by its presence. Right?

[87:50] Don't feel surprised or confused by its presence. I hope one of the things we've seen clearly is that we live in a fallen world. Right? And there are all sorts of things that are wrong with our world, all sorts of things that are broken, including our bodies, our hearts, and our minds.

[88:04] And so, it's no surprise that one of the areas that it's affected is our sexual desires. Now, all of us experience sexual desires that are not as it should be. Right? Whether it is for members of the opposite sex or the same sex.

[88:18] Right? So, all of us are affected. It's just how it comes out, how it manifests itself. And, if you're a Christian, remember the gospel. Right? If you're someone who is trusting in Christ, tonight, you can be assured that you are fully forgiven, you are fully accepted by God.

[88:36] Romans 8, verse 1, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. So, if you are truly trusting in Christ, you are wanting to repent, put your faith in Him, you can be completely assured that you are loved by Him.

[88:51] Right? It is helpful to distinguish between sin and temptation. Sin and temptation. All Christians will experience different sorts of temptation in life.

[89:02] And, for some of us, that temptation takes the form of same-sex attraction. Right? And, the presence of temptation from the outside is not a sin to be repented of.

[89:16] Right? It's to be resisted, but it's not to be repented of because it's a temptation from the outside. Right? So, the question is what to do when temptation is present. Right? The question to ask is, are you resisting it?

[89:31] Or, are you kind of welcoming it into your life? Are you cultivating it? Right? So, if you are making a conscious decision to kind of welcome those desires, then that is something you should repent of.

[89:44] Right? But, if you are resisting, then great. Then just keep doing that. And, of course, feel free to take those desires to God in prayer. Hebrews 4 says that Jesus is a great high priest who sympathizes with us.

[89:59] Right? And, don't walk alone. Seek Christian brothers and sisters to walk along with you. And, this is really important. Beware over-realized eschatology.

[90:12] Okay, now what do I mean by that? Right? I use some big words, but what do I mean by that? Right? I mean this. Does God change our actual desires in this life?

[90:25] He might. He might. But, he doesn't promise them. He doesn't promise them. Right? So, you could pray to God for him to change your desires.

[90:39] And, for some people, that prayer is wonderfully answered in this life. Right? Your desires are wonderfully changed, but, God never said that that will automatically happen. Right?

[90:49] And so, we should not make promises that God did not promise. Right? It might be a lifelong struggle for some people. Right? And, that's also true for some other sins as well, isn't it? For some of us, there are certain sins that we have a lifelong struggle with.

[91:01] Right? So, there might be progress. I'm not saying there's no progress. But, it might not all disappear. So, it is important to recognize that you're helping someone not to over-promise.

[91:12] Right? Another common question, did God make me gay? You know, it seems as if I was born this way. Right? All about the born this way argument. Now, it's actually helpful to think about what is the question behind the question.

[91:28] Because, when somebody asks, did God make me gay? Was I born this way? Right? Often, the real question that is behind the question is, am I to blame?

[91:43] Am I to blame? Are my parents to blame? Or is God to blame? Is there something, is there something wrong with me? Right? Did I do something wrong?

[91:56] Right? That is actually the real question. And, you know, when you look at the nurture nature debate, right, it keeps on going on and on and on, right? And, how people interpret the data depends on what side you're on.

[92:09] almost, right? But, the data does currently seem to show that sexual orientation is less fixed than we're trained to think. Right? Sexual orientation is less fixed than we're trained to think.

[92:21] Right? And, basically, there's no consensus, right? People talk about the gay gene, their gay gene, but actually, there is absolutely zero consensus on it. But, here's the really important thing. does it really matter if we were born with same-sex attraction?

[92:42] Let's say there was something on the nature debate and we were born with it. You see, actually, all of us, right, because of the four, we are born with broken genetics in one way or another.

[92:54] We all have certain inclinations that are probably not right. So, for some people, right, they might, some people have a predisposition to alcoholism. Right? Right?

[93:04] That doesn't mean that, therefore, that excuses their drunkenness. Right? But, it does mean that it is more of a struggle for them. Right? So, actually, in one sense, it doesn't matter.

[93:16] Right? And, in fact, there's one writer called Justin Lee. Justin Lee is somebody who affirms homosexual relationships. I mean, he argues that the Bible says that homosexual relationships are fine.

[93:28] Right? But, he says this. He says, just because an attraction or drive is biological doesn't mean it's okay to act on. We all have inborn tendencies to sin in any number of ways.

[93:40] If gay people's same-sex attractions were inborn, that wouldn't necessarily mean it's okay to act on them. And, if we all agree that gay sex is sinful, that wouldn't necessarily mean same-sex attractions are inborn.

[93:50] So, is it a sin? And, was I born this way? It's actually two separate questions. Surely God doesn't want me to be miserable.

[94:05] Now, in a sense, that's true. I think God does want us to be happy. He wants us to have joy. But, what is different is that God says happiness is not found in affirming what goes against his good design.

[94:18] Isn't it? Right? The world says, look within you to find happiness. But, Jesus says, no, if you look within you, you'll find that your hearts are actually defiled. Right? So, again, it actually comes back to the question, who do you think Jesus is?

[94:29] And, do you trust him to tell you what true happiness is all about? Because, this true happiness is actually found in denying yourself and following him. Right? So, God is very clear. He says that, actually, in this life, if you follow me, there will be difficulty.

[94:42] But, then he also goes on to say, it will be worth it. Isn't it? You will actually gain the best thing in the world. Is it okay if the same-sex relationship is faithful?

[94:53] I think we covered that already, isn't it? Right? The question is not whether the, the problem is not whether it's faithful or not. It's the fact that homosexuality in itself goes against God's great design. Now, what should I do if a friend comes out?

[95:13] Actually, how many of you have had that experience of a friend coming out to you? Anyone? Alex has? Okay. My auntie has?

[95:26] I have. So, what are you doing? How would you react if somebody came up to you and said that actually, I want to tell you something very important.

[95:37] Now, remember what is our goal? Our goal, no matter what, is to point people to Jesus and point them to his gospel. Actually, that's the number one goal. It's not to try to make someone straight or something like that.

[95:48] Right? So, I think, right, the first thing you want to do is if somebody has actually come out to you, make sure that you say thank you so much for being willing to be honest with me and that you will trust me enough to dare to say something like that.

[96:06] Right? This is a big thing for them. I still remember when one of my friends came up to me, we were at a shopping mall, I think, or the KL shopping malls. Maybe, I can't remember which one, one uttama or something. And we were just looking, you know, on high floors and just looking at the crowd and he was next to me.

[96:24] And then, he looked at me and then he said, he said, actually, Brian, I've got something to tell. It came up. So, it is a big thing. And actually, you just want to listen to their stories. That's the first thing you want to do.

[96:35] You don't have to ask questions. Right? Just get to know, okay, when did they know? Was it something you felt when you were young and so on? Right? Just let them tell their story. Right? And avoid trying to investigate as to how their same-sex attraction is caused.

[96:52] Oh, is it maybe you had some abusive father in your childhood or something like that? Right? Because the truth is, right? Yeah, I know there's a myth that saves that, oh, everybody who is gay, right, when they must have a troubled childhood and something going wrong with their parenting.

[97:08] And in fact, Jesus is true, but it's not true in everything. Right? And remember, right, if the person is not a Christian, then remember, like I said, the most important thing for the person is to know Jesus, right?

[97:20] That's true of any non-Christian. And so, what you want to do is, we just want to point them to Jesus, right? Because their lifestyle is simply a symptom of the fact that they don't know Jesus. Isn't it?

[97:31] Right? 1 Corinthians 5, verse 9 to 11, right, I'll look at it, I'll look at that passage again later on, right? But it makes clear that it is actually impossible for us to disassociate ourselves with non-Christians.

[97:45] Right? If we live in this world, we're going to associate with non-Christians unless you become a monk. Right? And actually, right, when it comes to non-Christians, right, it's actually not our primary responsibility to judge their lifestyle because that is God's prerogative, right?

[98:03] When I turn to 1 Corinthians 5, you'll see that for yourself, right? But of course, while we don't make that judgment, we do refrain, of course, from what is honoring to God, so of course, we don't participate in pride celebrations and things like that, right?

[98:15] And if the person is a Christian already, then you want to tell them about the things that I said earlier, you want to remind them that actually struggling against sin is normal, right? This is just like any struggle with any other sin, right?

[98:29] It's just about what form it takes and you will walk alongside the person as you would with any other person who is struggling with any other kind of sin, whether that is looking at heterosexual pornography or alcoholism, whatever it is, right?

[98:42] And there's a balance to be made, you don't want to make it too small a deal, but you don't want to make it too big a deal, right? It is not, it's not what defines them, it's a big part of their lives but it's not what defines them, right?

[98:59] And don't over-promise what the Bible doesn't promise. Now, how can the church be better at supporting same-sex Christians, right? I think there are a few things that a church can, a few steps a church can take to help this.

[99:14] Well, number one, it's just to foster an environment to make it a bit easier to talk about, right? I mean, that's one of the things that people find hardest, isn't it, right? And that might mean things like not singling out homosexuality as the sin, right?

[99:29] It is a sin, but it's not the only sin, right? Don't talk about homosexual people in deregatory ways, right? Don't make fun of them, right?

[99:40] The moment you do that, then someone who is struggling with sex attracted, they'll never open up to you because you just be part of them, right? I'll talk about this also in the transgender stuff, but don't buy into gender stereotypes, right?

[99:55] You know, when we over-promote gender stereotypes, we actually help those who don't, those who don't fit those gender stereotypes, right? You actually make it less welcoming for them, exclude them, so don't say all boys like sports, or your women's event always involves cooking, you know, ladies' fellowship is always about cooking, right?

[100:24] Don't hold up marriage as the Christian ideal and singleness as the lesser option, right? Because for same-sex attracted people, right, who want to be faithful to Jesus, singleness is actually probably their only option, right?

[100:37] And actually, the Bible affirms both marriage and singleness. It says both are good gifts from God, right? But sometimes in some churches, right, it can make it seem like, oh, if you're not married, you're somehow second-way, hey, why do you have a girlfriend?

[100:50] That's a joke, right? And, recognize that biological family is not the only family because if you are same-sex attracted, right, and you don't have your own family, so to speak, because you can't get married.

[101:04] Now, I'm not saying that all same-sex attracted people can't get married, some do, but, you know, quite a few of them they don't, right? Right? And sometimes it can get very lonely, isn't it? Right? And so, isn't it great if a church family comes together and be their family?

[101:18] Right? So, again, don't over-focus on biological family. Here's an interesting one, and this is very not straightforward.

[101:29] Should I ever attend a gay wedding? Now, maybe you'll never ever face this issue because we live in Malaysia, but maybe you would because maybe you'll be invited to Singapore or somewhere. Right?

[101:41] And it's not straightforward. So, let me just give you a few principles, right? Let's look again at that 1 Corinthians chapter 5, verse 9 to 13. Let me read that out.

[101:52] 1 Corinthians chapter 5, verse 9 to 13. I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people, not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters.

[102:13] In that case, you would have to leave the world. But now, I'm writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister, but is sexually immoral or greedy. An idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler do not even leave with such people.

[102:28] So, God says we are called to avoid associating with people who are involved in sexual immorality. But did you notice the context here? He actually says especially he is talking in particular of within the Christian community.

[102:44] Isn't it? So, he's actually saying that if someone claims to be a Christian but is involved in indulging in sexual immorality without repentance, then actually you should not be in fellowship with such a person.

[102:57] So, in that case, no line. But what about those who are not Christians?

[103:09] That's a bit tricky, isn't it? Should you or should you not? Okay, still not straightforward. So, another passage to consider is 1 Corinthians chapter 8.

[103:22] And in chapter 8, I'm not going to read the whole thing. But basically, that's the one about idol food. And basically, the basic principle is this.

[103:34] In one sense, Paul says you have freedom. It's just food. But, by your actions, you might impact another Christian's conscience.

[103:45] So, you might be strong. Food is just food. But, if you eat the idol food, you're stumbling your fellow Christian. And that also applies, I think, to this area. Could it be that if you decided to attend a gay wedding, what impact would it have on your brothers and sisters around you?

[104:04] So, really, the big question is, to ask yourself is, what is being communicated by your attendants or by your non-attendants? What are you communicating to the people who are getting married?

[104:17] What are you communicating to those around you? Are you just attending? Because, attending doesn't necessarily mean endorsing, right? But it could be, exactly.

[104:29] And that's the tricky part. So, basically, there is no straightforward answer to this. And this is a wisdom call. You need to look at the specifics of the situation, of the particular case, and you need to pray, pray, pray, and ask for help, and then you can make your decision.

[104:48] So, I'm not telling you it's a yes or a no, but I'm telling you these are some of the things that you really need to consider. What are you communicating by your actions? So, finally, the last one, how should we treat Christians who are arguing for same-sex relationships?

[105:08] Now, it's really important, I think, to recognize that actually, again, there is not a one-size-fits-all relationship, because it really depends.

[105:20] You see, a Christian who is arguing for same-sex relationship, what could he be? There are a few categories. He could be a false teacher. That's why he's arguing for same-sex relationships.

[105:32] And the Bible is clear, 1 Timothy 6, which we will look at on Sunday, false teachers should be rejected. That's what we should do when we encounter false teachers, we reject their teaching. it could be they are arguing for same-sex relationships, because they themselves are in a same-sex relationship, and they are unrepentant.

[105:50] And 1 Corinthians 5 also makes it clear that these people, we should not be in fellowship with them. So that's one slightly different category. But, they could also be naive disciples who have been taken in by false teaching.

[106:05] So come with me to Jude. Jude is the second last book of the Bible, Jude 22 and 23. Let me read to that. Be merciful to those who doubt, save others by snatching them from the fire, to others show mercy mixed with fear, hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

[106:27] So basically, some people might be arguing for same-sex relationships because they're simply parroting what they've heard on YouTube or what their friends, but they're actually quite naive, they've been deceived.

[106:39] Right? And actually, Jude tells us that we should have mercy on them and we should bring them back to the right way. You know, just say that actually, what they say, if you look at the context, it's not correct, et cetera, et cetera, right?

[106:53] And of course, people who are arguing for same-sex relationships, they might call themselves Christians, but they could also be actually lost sinners. They might actually be non-Christians, they just think they're Christians, in which case, do they need?

[107:07] What do all non-Christians need? the gospel. The gospel. That's exactly right and what you want to figure out is the gospel. Okay, that took about 15 minutes, more, longer than I expected, but that's where that's all I have for tonight.

[107:28] So, there is time for some questions. So, I'm keen to hear some questions or if you need that need to clarify some stuff. I realise I have a lot of stuff tonight, so it might be that something wasn't so clear.

[107:44] I need to clarify that as well. That's also okay. Let me take some water as well. I just wonder, is it fair to say that rich generation lost the back of the LGBT due to insufficient extension and preaching by the churches throughout the world?

[108:22] For example, you get in UK, I'm sure you are prior to all the words afraid, lost or preaching and first thing, or no care that.

[108:34] Therefore, people who do not actually know the Christian position is that sexual meaning that God has created clearly in Genesis, right in the beginning and ancient clearly as well.

[108:55] And the early Christians obviously understood it and somehow along the line we are not taught and therefore we are not seen.

[109:06] And it is a matter of constant persuasion by that special interest group and caused them to win the record including some of the very new terminology which can become a bit bad in Christian one two like it is their identity or identity God only create two identities male and female that are arguing and they did not stay neither male nor female or in some country they called the third kind Christian had not believed in Matthew that strong enough and therefore we are left in the present position trying to defend all these things only things arise because for long years of time the church did not acknowledge clearly on these words from that if it is true then we pay attention as a church there may be other areas that if we do not emphasize enough we may also lose the better okay let me try to summarize and then respond to that so basically

[110:34] I think the question is have we lost the battle have Christians and is that one factor that the church has not paid sufficient attention or has not taught strongly enough on the topic yeah something along those lines anyway I suppose again there are many many factors that go into it in a sense you could say that we have lost the battle somewhat maybe there's probably some truth in that because you can probably see that all around us LGBT orthodoxy is kind of winning the day in that sense so I suppose you could say the battle has been lost but I just want to say one thing first of all we never lose the war because Jesus is on his throne so the first thing I want to say is and I want to say that when I do the transgender seminar as well is that sometimes some of us our first response is panic or no all these new things new terminology everything is coming in pushing in Christians are minority we're all beleaguered and it's true that we are under pressure but I think we must never lose sight of the fact that

[111:41] Jesus is on his throne and he will win the day so I don't think our first response should be to panic if that is one of our responses now in terms of yes properly it's somewhat true that maybe the church might have lost the plot somewhat in some ways they have not taught the gospel enough they have not stressed the bible enough that's probably true but I think it's also important to realize that each generation faces very different kinds of challenges and pressures and each generation's challenge is different and sometimes it's only when the challenge arises that then the church has to respond so for example why did the early church spend so much time in the first few centuries having all these creeds about Jesus is fully God fully man we've got this Nicene creed that we sometimes say and they spend so much time on the debate is because the big debate of that time in that era was that the heresy at that time was is Jesus really truly

[112:52] God or is Jesus really truly human so some people are arguing Jesus is yes Jesus is God but he's not really man he pretends to be a man only or some other people are saying Jesus is almost like God but he's not God right and so the early church had to hash it out right and that's why they had to spend so much time on that and actually in the first piece of they didn't talk that much about the Holy Spirit for example because there wasn't an area of debate right our challenge for us in our time I think is so we're talking about homosexuality and then we'll talk about transgenderism right but actually the real theological question behind all those things right I think the big question of our time is what does it mean to be a human what does it mean to be a human and that's what the church really needs to think through carefully what does it mean to be a man a woman because if you think about it our current challenge is not just homosexuality and transgenderism even questions like AI isn't it AI is a virtual world right it's a disembodied reality what does that mean about our bodies right so we just need to identify what are some of the cultural challenges which is what I tried to do which is why I tried to show you that homosexuality is actually about identity and when you come to transgender you'll probably find that I will be saying something not too different right so and then we just got to meet it okay another question from someone else yes my uncle what are the actual causes of these people having the same sense again the scientific community as far as

[115:07] I can tell from the reading there is not a lot of consensus actually right and it seems like all those things are true right there might be some environmental factors at play there might be something within our body that might predispose certain people to there and again the other thing to realize is that it's also not necessarily fixed so one of the most interesting findings is it a bit crude but you know finding that actually for example a lot of lesbian women they actually have heterosexual sex also you know so there's all these interesting findings right and again do some people get cured of it I suppose again some do some do but many don't but many don't right so there have been reports especially in the earlier generation in the 90s one of the big movements was

[116:13] XK movement and there was something called conversion therapy which some of you probably have heard of you know they do certain things to kind of try to get electric shocks and whatever to kind of get you out of it right and you do hear some success stories but actually in the long term some of those success stories turn out a lot to be success stories either right actually in fact the founder of Exodus International I think I'm correct in saying this I need to double check so he's the founder of one of these movements that does one of these things he himself lapsed back into a gay homosexual relationship so the results are not promising to say but people but what I want to say is that there are many people including people I know personally who have they are not rid entirely of their same-sex attractions but they are working faithfully with the Lord so they don't act on their same-sex attractions and they just live normal lives and they just get on with it and yes it's tough for them sometimes in ways that maybe those of us who don't encounter that experience that we don't fully understand it but that's just part of their discipleship because what is what does

[117:27] Jesus call us to do he calls us to carry our cross and actually that's true for every single one of us it's just that for them they carry their cross in this particular way but for us we carry our cross in other different ways so actually we're no different from them or we're not supposed to be any different from them we're all supposed to carry our cross it's just how do we carry our cross yes yeah ask the Roman Catholic well number one I think we're all Protestants in this room I'm not aware of any Roman Catholics who sign up so in any case we don't recognize the Pope as the ultimate authority anyway so it's okay he so if the Pope says it as Protestants we don't have to recognize his authority I haven't like really fully delved into what he said and all that one commentary that I did read on it interestingly apparently there's a few things in the background that are going on which is number one he's actually not exactly saying something new because he was talking about blessings and then he's applying it to same sex couples and apparently there's something in some Roman

[118:58] Catholic theological document somewhere that says that the clergy in certain particular situations and conditions they can do what is called an irregular blessing if the situation calls for it and apparently basically what he's just saying is it falls under that category like so called irregular special case blessing so actually he isn't quite innovating something new and apparently there's some politics going on in the background as well between different factions in the church so that has something to do with why he said what he said yeah we don't have to follow the Pope it's the bottom line yes yes okay okay um in fact

[120:00] Romans or even the advertisement addresses about homosexuality does it mean that during that time there's always there's already such okay okay the question is um does this kind of openness now about LGBT also relates I mean it's also coming from what we call postmodernism of LinkedIn followers okay and the third question um today actually you mentioned more about sex but LGBT actually goes into queer sexual and others class would you mind to answer a little bit on how this can be here sure sure sure okay people are leaving so this will be the last question I think question one

[121:03] I think the answer is yes clearly there are people who have engaged in homosexual acts even in the Old Testament but it is seen as being against God's creation order it's clearly something that is wrong so Genesis 19 for example in Sodom and Gomorrah it appears that one of the things that the mob wanted to do was to actually have some homosexual relations with the people right so yes there is homosexual actions clearly people have indulged in them right even in the Old Testament your second question was about postmodernism right whether it is yeah one of the things I tried to do in the first third of this seminar is basically to try to show some of the cultural influences including what I call expressive individualism actually it wasn't me it's coined by other people and so that's the philosophy that actually we have the right to define ourselves whether you want to park that under postmodern philosophy or not well in a way it doesn't matter right the point is that is what is part of the defining philosophy of the day yes it could be you could consider it postmodern if you think of postmodern as the rejection of objective truth and the fact that

[122:19] I get to define my own truth for myself so if you consider that postmodern then yeah I suppose it could come out of that and then thirdly how about the other letters in the alphabet soup of LGBT IQQA I've forgotten the rest of it correct I will deal with the T part at least in two weeks time when I talk about transgender right which is related but not the same and in a way what I say about T will probably have some application to the other letters as well so come back in two weeks time and pray for me because I've only written half of the seminar okay time is getting on so I'll pause there at the back there's a bibliography of your handout right so I'll just mention a few of them right the best simple simple and basic book to read is called

[123:22] MTK right this is the second edition right in our church library we only have the first edition but first and second edition in terms of the content it's actually more or less the same the only difference is that he has restructured how he presented the material but in terms of content it's actually more or less the same but it's called MTK it's probably the best introduction if you don't know anything about it if you're interested to know how to interpret all those individual passages in our six passages right then what does the bible really say about homosexuality it's also in our church library and he does go through all six passages in more detail and he talks about how other people have argued and then shows how we should read them there are a few it's helpful to read personal accounts people who are actually same-sex attracted and how they have tried to follow Jesus there's quite a few of them I've mentioned two on the handout one of them I've been quoting her tonight Rachel Gilson forgot to take the book but it's called

[124:23] Born Again This Way it's very helpful another one that I really like is called Wash and Waiting by Wesley Hill which is also in our church library and again it's just an account of somebody who has same-sex attraction and how he has dealt with that and actually there's a few others as well I haven't read all of them but if you wanted to find out about others Beckett Cook some of you might have heard that you can read those as well I just want to mention this one also one more maybe plausibility problem which I find really helpful because this one is more thinking about how can church be better at supporting same-sex attracted people what are some of the mistakes we have made so for example he says things like he goes through nine different myths like your identity is your sexuality if it makes you happy it must be right and so on and so forth but one of the things he really helps is he also thinks through how can church be better at supporting people so that's what I really like about him Ed Shaw is also himself same-sex attracted in fact he's one of those people who are fighting in the church of

[125:28] England right now against the homosexual lobby and the artists as well they're all in the hand out anyway so with that let me stop here but in two weeks time I'll be talking about transgender and I'll probably follow a roughly similar approach to what I did today so that will just help you to set your expectations right let me pray father father we thank you lord for that wonderful truth in 1 corinthians 6 that although we are all broken people we are all sinful in some way or another and we all know that our sexuality is not as it ought to be and yet you wonderfully say that in christ that is what we were but that is not what we have to be because you have washed us you cleansed us you have justified us you have sanctified us so father i just pray now that what we said tonight would be helpful for everybody thinking through how to approach the issue biblically but also lord to be able to love and help those lord who might be experiencing same sex attraction we pray lord that if there's anyone in the room who is struggling with that tonight we pray that he or she would have been knowledge and understanding of you as a result and again we pray for the rest of us to know what to say what to do help us to have wisdom lord whenever we encounter this issue whenever we talk about this issue with others help us to do what is right and what is wise and what is honoring to you we pray!

[127:25] B Thank you.